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Eidein's avatar

> Sex as a Right — Incels view sex as something they are “owed” rather than a consensual exchange.

I have a very big problem with most of the discussion around this idea, that some men think sex is their right, and they're evil for thinking that. I don't necessarily disagree, but I think that that is a maliciously wrong framing.

First: I have met a lot of incels in my life. None of them care about sex. They care about intimacy, connection, and companionship. I don't necessarily disagree with the accusation that they feel they are 'owed' it, but, there's a gigantic difference between sex and intimacy.

You can trivially prove this. If incels only cared about sex, a decent hooker in Vegas is $600. That's one week's minimum wage pay. If you were that desperate, it wouldn't be too hard to come up with that money. But incels don't do this, because they know that's not what they want.

When people summarize the incel position as "they think they're 'owed' sex", that's a way to disparage them and make them seem like creepy rapists. I'm not saying you're doing that; you're just providing a summary of the cultural discourse. But a lot of women do that, and it's maliciously wrong.

But what I also want to push back on? It's not unreasonable for people to feel that they are owed that. They aren't owed that, but, it's not unreasonable for them to feel like are, because they grow up in a society where everyone in the previous generations got that without trying, everyone in media brags and shows off about having that, and all women act entitled to that at all times.

Yeah yeah, I know, "just one anecdote", but, to support that last one: I once got into an argument with a woman where she told me that it was an unacceptable abuse of her human rights to expect her to go 8 weeks without having sex. It's been 7 years for me, I'm still waiting for my rights. Women actually sincerely, deep in their bones, believe that they are in fact owed sex. It is offensive when they accuse men who obviously do not think that, of thinking that.

For an oversimplied example, imagine a hypothetical conversation that millions of men in America have had, many times. Just so I don't have to be the asshole saying it, here's hoe_math saying it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rgXgANHrhk

Let's say you're a lonely guy who wants to not be lonely. So you go to a bunch of your female friends and you say "how do I get a girl to like me". And they give you some trite bullshit advice that's laughably wrong, but you don't know it's wrong, because if you knew how to recognize which advice was wrong, you'd know what advice was right, and then you'd just do that, and you'd not be alone.

So these guys go out and do that advice, the advice that their female friends said would get women to like them, and it doesn't work. And those guys say "what the fuck, everyone told me that if I did these things, somebody would like me. But now you're saying that doesn't count? That doesn't matter? That's not fair".

Of course, in reality, the advice was just wrong, and the guys are most certainly not entitled to a date. But, when all of society says "do this thing, and you'll get a date", and then you do that thing, and you still don't get a date, it's fundamentally reasonable to be upset about that.

If society then turns around and says "wow, look at this piece of shit, he thinks he's entitled to a date just because he did [the thing we told him would get him a date", that's cruel. That's sadistically kicking someone when they're down.

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> MEN MUST HAVE THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES. Get out of the house, man, and spend time with women. And don’t allow 10 hell, maybe even 30 bad experiences with women to ruin your perception of them. I’ve dated so many women. I don’t type this from a place of bragging. But I type this from a place of EXPERIENCE.

I get told this a lot, and it makes me mad. (I'm not mad at you. That wouldn't be fair. You don't even know me)

To be quite honest, I've had a lot of bad experiences, and I have internalized several of the attitudes your post is saying I shouldn't.

The thing is, it's not because I had 30 bad experiences. I get that from my more successful friends all the time. "Bro, we all have bad experiences. You just have to put yourself out there.". No, I have a problem with the fact that I've had zero _good_ experiences, and I'm almost 40 now.

If I had to get rejected 100 times to get one date, that would be totally fine. The problem is, my friends get rejected 100 times and then get a date. I get rejected 100 times, and then I get rejected again.

If I had even a very small amount of successes to point at, it would be easy to say "it's worth all of the rejection". But I don't. The lesson I've learned in my own life, is that no matter what I do, I'm just going to get shit on. And so now, I assume the worst, and I act defensively. I'm not going to hit on a woman in public, because I'm tired of getting rejected and always failing. Does that mean I'm just not going to get dates? Yes, yes it does. But I wasn't getting them anyway, and at least this way, I don't have to deal with everyone in the world constantly telling me through my actions that they want me to go die in a ditch. No, instead, I'm going to stay in my house, where I'm not going to be any more lonely than I would outside, but at least I'll be safe and comfortable. To reiterate:

> Don’t let a handful of bad experiences convince you that all women are the enemy.

It's not my bad experiences that convinced me of this. It was the fact that I'm almost 40 and I have never, not once in my life, had a good experience. When I have a good experience, I'll change my mind. I'm still waiting.

And, sorry if this is presumptuous but I get it a lot from other people,

> Psychological research consistently shows that confidence, self-improvement, and a growth mindset lead to better outcomes in dating, relationships, and life. The question is…

I've already done more of that than most people do in their entire lives. Nobody noticed or cared. I mean, I got hit on by a bunch of gay guys, they sure noticed. But women didn't. All the self improvement in the world counted for exactly zero to them, so I'm not wasting my effort anymore

Drummerwoody's avatar

I appreciate you pointing out the complexities inherent in masculine - feminine interactions. Evolutionary psychology explains a lot about behaviors that are driven by our DNA. But our intellects also have independent drivers based on societal context. The most obvious example of this is when someone explains what they’re looking for in a mate (logic driven), yet everyone they date is different from that explanation (DNA driven). This is a pretty common occurrence.

Many people have the arrogant notion that humans are so smart, we can override natural laws with our extreme intelligence. This is actually the height of foolishness. Our DNA “knows” what is required to propagate itself. When our bodies are telling us one thing, and our minds (influenced by reductionist groupthink) tell us something different, the cognitive dissonance creates challenges for us. This may be one explanation for some of the things you’re pointing out in these various groups of men who are trying to figure it all out. Unfortunately, the easiest answer is usually reductionist. Thus, we end up with slogans on bumper stickers rather than actual serious discussions of the nuances we all face in life.

I hope this article gets some good dialog going.

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