> Sex as a Right — Incels view sex as something they are “owed” rather than a consensual exchange.
I have a very big problem with most of the discussion around this idea, that some men think sex is their right, and they're evil for thinking that. I don't necessarily disagree, but I think that that is a maliciously wrong framing.
First: I have met a lot of incels in my life. None of them care about sex. They care about intimacy, connection, and companionship. I don't necessarily disagree with the accusation that they feel they are 'owed' it, but, there's a gigantic difference between sex and intimacy.
You can trivially prove this. If incels only cared about sex, a decent hooker in Vegas is $600. That's one week's minimum wage pay. If you were that desperate, it wouldn't be too hard to come up with that money. But incels don't do this, because they know that's not what they want.
When people summarize the incel position as "they think they're 'owed' sex", that's a way to disparage them and make them seem like creepy rapists. I'm not saying you're doing that; you're just providing a summary of the cultural discourse. But a lot of women do that, and it's maliciously wrong.
But what I also want to push back on? It's not unreasonable for people to feel that they are owed that. They aren't owed that, but, it's not unreasonable for them to feel like are, because they grow up in a society where everyone in the previous generations got that without trying, everyone in media brags and shows off about having that, and all women act entitled to that at all times.
Yeah yeah, I know, "just one anecdote", but, to support that last one: I once got into an argument with a woman where she told me that it was an unacceptable abuse of her human rights to expect her to go 8 weeks without having sex. It's been 7 years for me, I'm still waiting for my rights. Women actually sincerely, deep in their bones, believe that they are in fact owed sex. It is offensive when they accuse men who obviously do not think that, of thinking that.
For an oversimplied example, imagine a hypothetical conversation that millions of men in America have had, many times. Just so I don't have to be the asshole saying it, here's hoe_math saying it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rgXgANHrhk
Let's say you're a lonely guy who wants to not be lonely. So you go to a bunch of your female friends and you say "how do I get a girl to like me". And they give you some trite bullshit advice that's laughably wrong, but you don't know it's wrong, because if you knew how to recognize which advice was wrong, you'd know what advice was right, and then you'd just do that, and you'd not be alone.
So these guys go out and do that advice, the advice that their female friends said would get women to like them, and it doesn't work. And those guys say "what the fuck, everyone told me that if I did these things, somebody would like me. But now you're saying that doesn't count? That doesn't matter? That's not fair".
Of course, in reality, the advice was just wrong, and the guys are most certainly not entitled to a date. But, when all of society says "do this thing, and you'll get a date", and then you do that thing, and you still don't get a date, it's fundamentally reasonable to be upset about that.
If society then turns around and says "wow, look at this piece of shit, he thinks he's entitled to a date just because he did [the thing we told him would get him a date", that's cruel. That's sadistically kicking someone when they're down.
----
> MEN MUST HAVE THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES. Get out of the house, man, and spend time with women. And don’t allow 10 hell, maybe even 30 bad experiences with women to ruin your perception of them. I’ve dated so many women. I don’t type this from a place of bragging. But I type this from a place of EXPERIENCE.
I get told this a lot, and it makes me mad. (I'm not mad at you. That wouldn't be fair. You don't even know me)
To be quite honest, I've had a lot of bad experiences, and I have internalized several of the attitudes your post is saying I shouldn't.
The thing is, it's not because I had 30 bad experiences. I get that from my more successful friends all the time. "Bro, we all have bad experiences. You just have to put yourself out there.". No, I have a problem with the fact that I've had zero _good_ experiences, and I'm almost 40 now.
If I had to get rejected 100 times to get one date, that would be totally fine. The problem is, my friends get rejected 100 times and then get a date. I get rejected 100 times, and then I get rejected again.
If I had even a very small amount of successes to point at, it would be easy to say "it's worth all of the rejection". But I don't. The lesson I've learned in my own life, is that no matter what I do, I'm just going to get shit on. And so now, I assume the worst, and I act defensively. I'm not going to hit on a woman in public, because I'm tired of getting rejected and always failing. Does that mean I'm just not going to get dates? Yes, yes it does. But I wasn't getting them anyway, and at least this way, I don't have to deal with everyone in the world constantly telling me through my actions that they want me to go die in a ditch. No, instead, I'm going to stay in my house, where I'm not going to be any more lonely than I would outside, but at least I'll be safe and comfortable. To reiterate:
> Don’t let a handful of bad experiences convince you that all women are the enemy.
It's not my bad experiences that convinced me of this. It was the fact that I'm almost 40 and I have never, not once in my life, had a good experience. When I have a good experience, I'll change my mind. I'm still waiting.
And, sorry if this is presumptuous but I get it a lot from other people,
> Psychological research consistently shows that confidence, self-improvement, and a growth mindset lead to better outcomes in dating, relationships, and life. The question is…
I've already done more of that than most people do in their entire lives. Nobody noticed or cared. I mean, I got hit on by a bunch of gay guys, they sure noticed. But women didn't. All the self improvement in the world counted for exactly zero to them, so I'm not wasting my effort anymore
I really appreciate different opinions on this. I think there needs to be a deeper discussions with incels in general as I can’t help but think they have their sub cultures too.
I appreciate you pointing out the complexities inherent in masculine - feminine interactions. Evolutionary psychology explains a lot about behaviors that are driven by our DNA. But our intellects also have independent drivers based on societal context. The most obvious example of this is when someone explains what they’re looking for in a mate (logic driven), yet everyone they date is different from that explanation (DNA driven). This is a pretty common occurrence.
Many people have the arrogant notion that humans are so smart, we can override natural laws with our extreme intelligence. This is actually the height of foolishness. Our DNA “knows” what is required to propagate itself. When our bodies are telling us one thing, and our minds (influenced by reductionist groupthink) tell us something different, the cognitive dissonance creates challenges for us. This may be one explanation for some of the things you’re pointing out in these various groups of men who are trying to figure it all out. Unfortunately, the easiest answer is usually reductionist. Thus, we end up with slogans on bumper stickers rather than actual serious discussions of the nuances we all face in life.
Leaving another comment before finishing reading, but only because you specifically said 'let me know in the comments'
> What do they believe
> Hypergamy — Women are biologically wired to always seek the “best” man available, constantly looking to “trade up.”
>
> Alpha vs. Beta Males — Alphas (dominant, high-status men) are sexually desired, while Betas (kind, supportive men) are only valued for resources.
>
> Frame Control — A man must always maintain emotional dominance in a relationship.
>
> AWALT (All Women Are Like That) — Women, by nature, are said to be manipulative and driven by self-interest.
I do not identify myself with any online male community or movement. But it has been my personal lived experience that all four of these points are ironclad facts of reality that are always true, with no exceptions
This makes me very sad. I don't like this. I don't want them to be true. But, every time, every single time, I have ever dared to let myself think someone was different, not only were they not different, but they exploited the information asymmetry to hurt me.
----
> Hypergamy
Every single one of my relationships that I have ever had (three), ended with her 'trading up'. In fact, all three of those relationships, as I understand them, only happened because she thought I was her 'only option', and as soon as I helped her improve her life to the point where that was no longer true, she was out the door.
1) She had chronic health problems and was living with her parents in her mid 20s, which she did not like. We met randomly online and since I was the only guy she knew, one thing led to another, and we started living together and dating for almost 3 years. During that time, living with me let her get out of her mom's sleepy little coastal town, and make friends, and as soon as she had other male friends, she left me to try to fuck them
2) She had severe depression and underestimated her own attractiveness. She was geeky, awkward, and kind of fat in highschool, and then lost weight and became the hottest woman I have ever met. But she was so geeky and awkward that she never left her house, spending all day on 4chan. We started dating, fell madly in love, moved in together, lived together for two years. During that time, it broke my heart that she had such low self esteem, and so I was constantly trying to help her overcome her anxieties and make friends. She has since fucked almost every single friend I helped her make
3) I ran a local social club and when she heard about it, she thought it was significantly more important and high status than it was, and dated me because I ran it. Once she realized it was basically just fifteen people in a drinking club that went to concerts together, she used my connections to start fucking a local DJ instead.
> Alpha vs Beta
I've been told to my face, probably dozens of times in my life, by girls rejecting me, that I come across as a beta. These same girls have absolutely no problem stringing me along for resources. I have never, not once in my life, met an exception to this
> Frame Control
I don't like playing dominance games. I'm looking for a life partner, not a little demon that I have to constantly reign in and keep in line, and so, I don't do that. Every time I don't do that, she starts doing it. No exceptions
> AWALT
Every specific example I have would just sound whiny, but, every time, EVERY SINGLE TIME, I have ever let myself think "this girl is different", she proved me wrong. The only ones who are actually different are the ones who are so gay that they look like dudes.
----
It's entirely possible that I'm just very unlucky, or that there's something about my life that has me only meeting the bad ones. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting situations. But in my very painful personal experience, all four of those manosphere points are 100% true all the time with no exceptions
I am writing this before I finish reading, because it is important, and I will forget otherwise
> The manosphere is not a singular, radicalized entity but a spectrum of ideas, some deeply disturbed. Some are kinda harmless, and some are good pieces of advice.
I generally agree with take, and if I had to put numbers on it, Iw ould say probably 40% disturbed, 55% neutral, and 5% good.
There are a lot of very bad ideas floating around out there in the manosphere. Women who scream about them tend to be wrong on the specifics, but they're not wrong in general. There's a lot of toxicity out there.
However, it seems like just about everybody (including most of the people reading that content themselves) don't properly recognize two really really important details.
1) The kinds of men who read that content are desperate for help, and the entire world has told them to fuck off and figure it out. They aren't going there because they hate women. They're going there, because that's the only place for them to go.
2) Generally speaking, when you don't understand something, and you seek help for it, you have no way of knowing whether the advice you get is good or bad. After all, if you knew what the good advice was, you wouldn't need the advice. You'd already have it.
So these two dynamics combine and the result is that a bunch of hurt and vulnerable men end up in those spaces, because they have nowhere else to go, and then they end up getting radicalized by scumbag PUA scam artists, precisely because those guys are toxic, and they've found easy targets.
I don't have a wider point, I just think there needs to be more recognition of this. The typical 'online mens rights' guy, doesn't hate women. In fact, for a lot of them, the core of their problem is that they don't hate women enough(*). In reality, they're confused and directionless and eating up BS because they can't tell the difference, and that BS involves hating women.
----
(*) Awkward phrasing because it was poetic, but, what I mean by 'not hating women enough' is like, putting them on a pedestal
> Sex as a Right — Incels view sex as something they are “owed” rather than a consensual exchange.
I have a very big problem with most of the discussion around this idea, that some men think sex is their right, and they're evil for thinking that. I don't necessarily disagree, but I think that that is a maliciously wrong framing.
First: I have met a lot of incels in my life. None of them care about sex. They care about intimacy, connection, and companionship. I don't necessarily disagree with the accusation that they feel they are 'owed' it, but, there's a gigantic difference between sex and intimacy.
You can trivially prove this. If incels only cared about sex, a decent hooker in Vegas is $600. That's one week's minimum wage pay. If you were that desperate, it wouldn't be too hard to come up with that money. But incels don't do this, because they know that's not what they want.
When people summarize the incel position as "they think they're 'owed' sex", that's a way to disparage them and make them seem like creepy rapists. I'm not saying you're doing that; you're just providing a summary of the cultural discourse. But a lot of women do that, and it's maliciously wrong.
But what I also want to push back on? It's not unreasonable for people to feel that they are owed that. They aren't owed that, but, it's not unreasonable for them to feel like are, because they grow up in a society where everyone in the previous generations got that without trying, everyone in media brags and shows off about having that, and all women act entitled to that at all times.
Yeah yeah, I know, "just one anecdote", but, to support that last one: I once got into an argument with a woman where she told me that it was an unacceptable abuse of her human rights to expect her to go 8 weeks without having sex. It's been 7 years for me, I'm still waiting for my rights. Women actually sincerely, deep in their bones, believe that they are in fact owed sex. It is offensive when they accuse men who obviously do not think that, of thinking that.
For an oversimplied example, imagine a hypothetical conversation that millions of men in America have had, many times. Just so I don't have to be the asshole saying it, here's hoe_math saying it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rgXgANHrhk
Let's say you're a lonely guy who wants to not be lonely. So you go to a bunch of your female friends and you say "how do I get a girl to like me". And they give you some trite bullshit advice that's laughably wrong, but you don't know it's wrong, because if you knew how to recognize which advice was wrong, you'd know what advice was right, and then you'd just do that, and you'd not be alone.
So these guys go out and do that advice, the advice that their female friends said would get women to like them, and it doesn't work. And those guys say "what the fuck, everyone told me that if I did these things, somebody would like me. But now you're saying that doesn't count? That doesn't matter? That's not fair".
Of course, in reality, the advice was just wrong, and the guys are most certainly not entitled to a date. But, when all of society says "do this thing, and you'll get a date", and then you do that thing, and you still don't get a date, it's fundamentally reasonable to be upset about that.
If society then turns around and says "wow, look at this piece of shit, he thinks he's entitled to a date just because he did [the thing we told him would get him a date", that's cruel. That's sadistically kicking someone when they're down.
----
> MEN MUST HAVE THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES. Get out of the house, man, and spend time with women. And don’t allow 10 hell, maybe even 30 bad experiences with women to ruin your perception of them. I’ve dated so many women. I don’t type this from a place of bragging. But I type this from a place of EXPERIENCE.
I get told this a lot, and it makes me mad. (I'm not mad at you. That wouldn't be fair. You don't even know me)
To be quite honest, I've had a lot of bad experiences, and I have internalized several of the attitudes your post is saying I shouldn't.
The thing is, it's not because I had 30 bad experiences. I get that from my more successful friends all the time. "Bro, we all have bad experiences. You just have to put yourself out there.". No, I have a problem with the fact that I've had zero _good_ experiences, and I'm almost 40 now.
If I had to get rejected 100 times to get one date, that would be totally fine. The problem is, my friends get rejected 100 times and then get a date. I get rejected 100 times, and then I get rejected again.
If I had even a very small amount of successes to point at, it would be easy to say "it's worth all of the rejection". But I don't. The lesson I've learned in my own life, is that no matter what I do, I'm just going to get shit on. And so now, I assume the worst, and I act defensively. I'm not going to hit on a woman in public, because I'm tired of getting rejected and always failing. Does that mean I'm just not going to get dates? Yes, yes it does. But I wasn't getting them anyway, and at least this way, I don't have to deal with everyone in the world constantly telling me through my actions that they want me to go die in a ditch. No, instead, I'm going to stay in my house, where I'm not going to be any more lonely than I would outside, but at least I'll be safe and comfortable. To reiterate:
> Don’t let a handful of bad experiences convince you that all women are the enemy.
It's not my bad experiences that convinced me of this. It was the fact that I'm almost 40 and I have never, not once in my life, had a good experience. When I have a good experience, I'll change my mind. I'm still waiting.
And, sorry if this is presumptuous but I get it a lot from other people,
> Psychological research consistently shows that confidence, self-improvement, and a growth mindset lead to better outcomes in dating, relationships, and life. The question is…
I've already done more of that than most people do in their entire lives. Nobody noticed or cared. I mean, I got hit on by a bunch of gay guys, they sure noticed. But women didn't. All the self improvement in the world counted for exactly zero to them, so I'm not wasting my effort anymore
I really appreciate different opinions on this. I think there needs to be a deeper discussions with incels in general as I can’t help but think they have their sub cultures too.
I appreciate you pointing out the complexities inherent in masculine - feminine interactions. Evolutionary psychology explains a lot about behaviors that are driven by our DNA. But our intellects also have independent drivers based on societal context. The most obvious example of this is when someone explains what they’re looking for in a mate (logic driven), yet everyone they date is different from that explanation (DNA driven). This is a pretty common occurrence.
Many people have the arrogant notion that humans are so smart, we can override natural laws with our extreme intelligence. This is actually the height of foolishness. Our DNA “knows” what is required to propagate itself. When our bodies are telling us one thing, and our minds (influenced by reductionist groupthink) tell us something different, the cognitive dissonance creates challenges for us. This may be one explanation for some of the things you’re pointing out in these various groups of men who are trying to figure it all out. Unfortunately, the easiest answer is usually reductionist. Thus, we end up with slogans on bumper stickers rather than actual serious discussions of the nuances we all face in life.
I hope this article gets some good dialog going.
Me too, thanks for reading.
Leaving another comment before finishing reading, but only because you specifically said 'let me know in the comments'
> What do they believe
> Hypergamy — Women are biologically wired to always seek the “best” man available, constantly looking to “trade up.”
>
> Alpha vs. Beta Males — Alphas (dominant, high-status men) are sexually desired, while Betas (kind, supportive men) are only valued for resources.
>
> Frame Control — A man must always maintain emotional dominance in a relationship.
>
> AWALT (All Women Are Like That) — Women, by nature, are said to be manipulative and driven by self-interest.
I do not identify myself with any online male community or movement. But it has been my personal lived experience that all four of these points are ironclad facts of reality that are always true, with no exceptions
This makes me very sad. I don't like this. I don't want them to be true. But, every time, every single time, I have ever dared to let myself think someone was different, not only were they not different, but they exploited the information asymmetry to hurt me.
----
> Hypergamy
Every single one of my relationships that I have ever had (three), ended with her 'trading up'. In fact, all three of those relationships, as I understand them, only happened because she thought I was her 'only option', and as soon as I helped her improve her life to the point where that was no longer true, she was out the door.
1) She had chronic health problems and was living with her parents in her mid 20s, which she did not like. We met randomly online and since I was the only guy she knew, one thing led to another, and we started living together and dating for almost 3 years. During that time, living with me let her get out of her mom's sleepy little coastal town, and make friends, and as soon as she had other male friends, she left me to try to fuck them
2) She had severe depression and underestimated her own attractiveness. She was geeky, awkward, and kind of fat in highschool, and then lost weight and became the hottest woman I have ever met. But she was so geeky and awkward that she never left her house, spending all day on 4chan. We started dating, fell madly in love, moved in together, lived together for two years. During that time, it broke my heart that she had such low self esteem, and so I was constantly trying to help her overcome her anxieties and make friends. She has since fucked almost every single friend I helped her make
3) I ran a local social club and when she heard about it, she thought it was significantly more important and high status than it was, and dated me because I ran it. Once she realized it was basically just fifteen people in a drinking club that went to concerts together, she used my connections to start fucking a local DJ instead.
> Alpha vs Beta
I've been told to my face, probably dozens of times in my life, by girls rejecting me, that I come across as a beta. These same girls have absolutely no problem stringing me along for resources. I have never, not once in my life, met an exception to this
> Frame Control
I don't like playing dominance games. I'm looking for a life partner, not a little demon that I have to constantly reign in and keep in line, and so, I don't do that. Every time I don't do that, she starts doing it. No exceptions
> AWALT
Every specific example I have would just sound whiny, but, every time, EVERY SINGLE TIME, I have ever let myself think "this girl is different", she proved me wrong. The only ones who are actually different are the ones who are so gay that they look like dudes.
----
It's entirely possible that I'm just very unlucky, or that there's something about my life that has me only meeting the bad ones. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting situations. But in my very painful personal experience, all four of those manosphere points are 100% true all the time with no exceptions
I am writing this before I finish reading, because it is important, and I will forget otherwise
> The manosphere is not a singular, radicalized entity but a spectrum of ideas, some deeply disturbed. Some are kinda harmless, and some are good pieces of advice.
I generally agree with take, and if I had to put numbers on it, Iw ould say probably 40% disturbed, 55% neutral, and 5% good.
There are a lot of very bad ideas floating around out there in the manosphere. Women who scream about them tend to be wrong on the specifics, but they're not wrong in general. There's a lot of toxicity out there.
However, it seems like just about everybody (including most of the people reading that content themselves) don't properly recognize two really really important details.
1) The kinds of men who read that content are desperate for help, and the entire world has told them to fuck off and figure it out. They aren't going there because they hate women. They're going there, because that's the only place for them to go.
2) Generally speaking, when you don't understand something, and you seek help for it, you have no way of knowing whether the advice you get is good or bad. After all, if you knew what the good advice was, you wouldn't need the advice. You'd already have it.
So these two dynamics combine and the result is that a bunch of hurt and vulnerable men end up in those spaces, because they have nowhere else to go, and then they end up getting radicalized by scumbag PUA scam artists, precisely because those guys are toxic, and they've found easy targets.
I don't have a wider point, I just think there needs to be more recognition of this. The typical 'online mens rights' guy, doesn't hate women. In fact, for a lot of them, the core of their problem is that they don't hate women enough(*). In reality, they're confused and directionless and eating up BS because they can't tell the difference, and that BS involves hating women.
----
(*) Awkward phrasing because it was poetic, but, what I mean by 'not hating women enough' is like, putting them on a pedestal